It’s chilly today as I’m writing this post for Reading The Wheel of Time, but not nearly as cold as it is in chapter three of Winter’s Heart, as Faile, Morgase, and Alliandre—along with fellow captives Bain and Chiad, Lacile and Arrela—try to survive their first few hours as prisoners of the Shaido. Being naked in a snowstorm is nothing to sneeze at, even for a Saldaean.
Walking and jogging naked through the falling snow with her captors, Faile mostly focuses on not freezing to death, and not falling down. She tries to notice everything, knowing that any detail might aid in her escape, but worries increasingly about frostbite, and over the way her feet are starting to bleed in the snow. She tries to work her fingers and toes as she goes, welcoming the pain because she knows that once she stops having feeling, that’s when she’s really in trouble.
Eventually the Shaido come to a halt, and start examining the feet of their prisoners. Rolan, Faile’s captor, is even bigger than Perrin, and lifts her effortlessly to throw her over his shoulder. Lacile and Arrela, two members of Cha Faile, submit to being similarly carried, once they see Bain and Chiad do the same, but Alliandre and Maighdin begin fighting their captors. Maighdin even bites the hand of the Aiel trying to lift her. Both Maighdin and Alliandre receive a whipping for their trouble and Faile doesn’t feel bad for them—their efforts were obviously useless and in addition to being wasted effort, meant keeping everyone out in the cold longer. But being carried makes it harder to stay warm and aware, and although Faile does her best to keep flexing her muscles and using her mind, she slowly loses her battle against the cold, finally falling asleep to nightmares of being chased by an angry Perrin through icy landscapes.
When she eventually wakes, she’s cold but not so deathly cold. A tall, green-eyed gai’shain serves her hot tea, warning her not to spill any. Faile is relieved to see that all her companions are there as well. Their captors have joined a large encampment of Shaido. She learns that their captors eventually wrapped them in blankets, fearing that they would freeze to death; the gai’shain says that it was a a dishonor, but Faile reminds him that she is not Aiel, and does not follow ji’e’toh. She points out that it is against custom to take wetlander prisoners, and wonders if the Shaido will let this man go once his time in white is up. But he doesn’t rise to her bait.
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Two Wise ones approach, along with a very strange gai’shain adorned in robes of white silk and a bejeweled gold belt and collar. One of the Wise Ones, Someryn, jokes that Sevanna will never rest until all the world is made gai’shain, while the other, Therava, remarks that they have too many gai’shain and that it is hampering their progress.
All of Faile’s instincts tell her not to draw Therava’s attention, and she tries to hide her face in her cup of tea, to come off as meek and unimportant. Alliandre spoils this, however, by loudly announcing who she is and that their captors can get a large ransom for them. She even refers to Faile as her liege lady, and demands accommodations and apologies for their mistreatment.
They are overheard by Sevanna, who has just arrived on horseback, wearing an enormous amount of jewelry and wetlander-style skirts. The gai’shain, who she names Galina, eagerly confirms that Alliandre is a wetlander queen, and that her liege-lady must be very powerful woman—Galina has never heard of a queen swearing fealty in such a way. For Faile, it is a bit like seeing Logain or Mazrim Taim, and she has a personal grudge against Sevanna since Perrin was at Dumai’s Wells.
Sevanna orders Galina to Heal them, then leaves after a brief argument with Therava. Faile is shocked to see a Great Serpent ring on Galina as she reaches out to perform the Healing.
More gai’shain, many of them wetlanders, bring food and clothes. Faile tries to refuse being given a belt and collar, but is told that she serves “the Lady Sevanna” now. She must do as she’s told or be punished until she sees the error of her ways. Maighdin and Alliandre are also given the belt and collar.
The camp is soon on the move, and they soon lose track of Bain and Chiad, Lacile and Arrela. Maighdin and Alliandre refuse to take any chance of escape unless Faile can come with them, despite Faile’s orders. Then Therava joins them.
Therava is briefly surprised when Faile knows the appropriate way to speak to a Wise One. She promises that they will not succeed in any escape attempts, and because they are wetlanders, they will not be released after a year and a day. She tells them all to watch and listen to everything Sevanna does and says, and to report it all back to Therava. If they please Therava, she will make sure they are left behind.
Faile doesn’t want any part of this scheme, but she knows that they can’t refuse—she’s confident that Therava could and would have them killed. Carefully, she asks if Therava will protect them if they are caught, but Therava promises to cook them herself if they are.
When Therava leaves, Alliandre tries to find an out, but Maighdin is confident that every one of Sevanna’s servants has been given the same mission, and the same threat; if they don’t do as they are told, those other servants will report on them. Alliandre tells Maighdin off for the way she has been behaving and speaking to them as an equal.
“Until we escape,” Maighdin replied, “you are Sevanna’s servant. If you don’t think of yourself as a servant every minute, then you might as well climb onto that spit. And leave room for the rest of us, because you will put us on it, as well.”
Faile intercedes, making Maighdin apologize but also ordering both of them to behave as good servants, keep their heads down, and report absolutely everything to Therava. They all have a good idea what Therava will do to them if they don’t.
But soon they are approached again, this time by Galina, who claims to be on an important mission for the White Tower. Galina tells them what will happen to them as Sevanna’s servants, that every one of those made gai’shain to her is either a noble, a rich merchant, or someone who knows how to serve nobility. Every day, Sevanna has five of her servants beaten, to encourage the rest. Galina describes the punishment for the first time they try to escape, and how much worse it is the second, and the third.
Maighdin and Alliandre bristle at the tirade, with Maighdin going so far as to point out that Galina seems to be in the exact same position. Galina snaps, calling her a wilder, and Faile has to intervene again. Faile gives her name as “the Lady Faile t’Aybara.” But she regrets it immediately when Galina recognizes Perrin’s last name, and gloats over the fact that Sevanna has plans for Rand al’Thor and would love to know she has someone so closely connected to al’Thor.
Galina tells them about an object Therava keeps in her tent, a smooth white rod kept in a red chest with brass binding. If they bring it to her, then she will take them with her when she leaves the Shaido. She becomes irate when Alliandre asks why Galina doesn’t just retrieve it herself, and tells them that if they don’t get it, she will leave them there until they are old, and tell Sevanna about Perrin Aybara.
As she leaves, Faile feels a little desperate about all the traps surrounding them. But she is still determined to escape, and falls back into planning as they walk.
I’m not sure I understand what Therava’s deal is. I mean, obviously she’s a horrible, sadistic person, and part of her conflict with Sevanna is over the fact they are both selfish, cruel, and power-hungry. But Sevanna has done a terrible job at leading the Shaido every step of the way for as long as she’s been in power, and she hasn’t even been able to cover it up effectively. It’s pretty obvious that her choices have been a disaster from the start, even if the majority of the Shaido still agree that Rand is not the car’a’carn and they do not want to follow him.
Of course, Sevanna does have the whole “you all murdered Desaine on my orders” thing she’s holding over some of the Wise Ones’ heads, Therava included. At the time, Sevanna believed that this would bind the Wise Ones to her, not only because it served as blackmail but also because they had all made the decision to commit murder against one of their own, and use it as a lie to convince the rest of the Shaido to do what they wanted. Committing such an act together still created a bond that perhaps isn’t easy to ignore, even though it’s between people who hate each other.
Still, at this point it’s kind of hard for me to understand why Therava isn’t just taking Sevanna out already. It really seems like the rest of the Wise Ones are more on Therava’s side than Sevanna’s, and Wise Ones really have the most power and authority in Aiel culture, even if their strict customs dictate when and how that authority is exercised. After all, the Shaido have largely abandoned Aiel tradition and dictates, and no one more fully than Sevanna has. So it’s hard to imagine that Therava is either personally attached to Aiel customs or worried that the Shaido would rebel at having a Wise One acting as clan chief. I mean, Sevanna is already kind of doing that, even though she’s never been an apprentice or traveled to Rhuidean.
I really don’t like Therava but I do want to understand her motivations, and she would almost definitely be better for the Shaido than Sevanna is, and even better for the wetlander “gai’shain” prisoners—I think she might be even more sadistic than Sevanna, but she doesn’t want as many gai’shain and servants, so, on balance, more people would be better off.
Maybe Faile will discover some of the answers to these questions while she and Alliandre and Morgase are caught between Therava and Sevanna. Faile’s a perfect character to have in this position, narratively speaking, because she’s very smart and already understands something of Aiel custom. She’ll be able to understand more of what she sees and learns than your average wetlander, but she’s still an outsider to their culture, which means that everything she encounters will be filtered through that perspective, a perspective the reader, also an outsider to the Aiel world, shares.
I was so grateful to have the POV from Maeric, back in Chapter 40 of A Crown of Swords, because it actually showed us a Shaido Aiel who felt like a real, ordinary person. Before then, we really only had Sevanna, Couladin, and Therava—not to mention a bunch of Wise Ones who were willing to murder one of their own in order to influence the loyalty of the Shaido following them. Very early on we were told by a member of one of the other Aiel clans (I can’t remember which character, exactly) that the Shaido are tricky and lack the honor that is so important to Aiel culture. So far, most of what we have seen fits that description, but even if the culture of this clan dominates much of their upbringing and perspective, no people is a monolith, and it’s not like the Shaido are all Darkfriends or Evil-capital-E. There are mothers and children and ordinary craftsmen who are not algai’d’siswai, who are following their leaders and living their lives as best they can. As with all the Aiel, the Shaido’s entire worldview was recently shattered, and when they looked for guidance they got Couladin and Sevanna. And for that, they have my sympathy.
Not to be reading ahead or anything, but there’s a poignant little moment in Chapter Five in which Perrin looks at an Aiel doll found lost in the snow and wonders if somewhere a little Shaido child is crying for her missing toy.
So yeah, I’m hoping we’ll learn more about why the Shaido, and especially the Shaido Wise Ones, are still following Sevanna. Perhaps Faile and the others spying for Therava will give the narrative an opportunity to explain this for us. Of course, in a series that is so expansive, with so very many cultures and characters, we’re not necessarily going to be able to get into the nuances of every culture. The Seanchan have the same problem—so far, Egeanin is the only Seanchan character who has really been humanized for us. Still, I’m always hoping for more.
Robert Jordan’s descriptive skills are on display again this week, as they have been in every chapter of Winter’s Heart. I’ve never been in high-key danger of frostbite or death the way Faile and her companions are in chapter three, but I have done enough outdoor hiking and skiing to have a little taste of what it’s like to reach that point where you’ve gotten too cold and not going to warm up again without help. I really enjoyed how smart and educated Faile was about the dangers of frostbite and hypothermia. As per usual, I could have done without some of the gratuitous descriptions of bare hips and bottoms and spanking, but the rest of the descriptions were so powerful that I actually felt cold myself while I was reading.
I had a moment where I thought it was unrealistic that the Aiel, who come from a land that is always hot, were able to endure the weather so much better than someone like Faile, who comes from a cold climate. But between the nakedness and the lack of movement once they are being carried, that would definitely make a huge difference. The narration didn’t make it clear to me whether or not Bain and Chiad were also in danger of dying, though, and if they also had their honor “offended” the way Faile did. The Aiel are a strong, hardy people, but faced with something so different from their natural environment, one wonders how far such hardiness would translate, especially when they weren’t able to do any of the things you’re supposed to do to keep themselves warm and alert.
In any case, it’s interesting to see where the Shaido have adapted and where they struggle to change their thinking. Of course there are some practical changes, like adding green to the cadin’sor, but I’m most interested in the cultural changes. The Shaido don’t appear to have much of an objection to taking wetlander prisoners. Nor have we really heard anyone object to the way Sevanna adorns her personal gai’shain in gold, or chooses to wear wetlander-style jewelry and clothing, or to ride a horse. I mean, she’s even named herself a Wise One, despite already speaking as clan chief and never having apprenticed or gone to Rhuidean. Sure, there’s been some grumbling and derision from the Wise Ones, but on the whole, Rand—who is the car’a’carn and wasn’t even raised as an Aiel—has gotten more flack for not behaving according to the dictates of ji’e’toh than Sevanna appears to have.
Perhaps that’s just because Sevanna has a good sense of which tenets of jie’e’toh will be considered the most inviolate by her people—I doubt she’d ever pick up a sword, for example. Or, maybe the Shaido are breaking under the same weight that the rest of the world seems to feel, the sense that the Dragon Reborn is breaking all bonds. They don’t have a prophecy that says such a thing will happen, but that doesn’t mean that there aren’t real ta’veren effects working on them.
When Galina was captured, I couldn’t help but think about the similarities between her situation and that of the damane. Bound by the One Power to obey Therava and Sevanna, beaten down physically and spiritually until she is becoming very obsequious and fawning—Faile even mentally compares her behavior to that of an obedient dog. It’s difficult to read, even knowing that Galina is a darkfriend, just as it is difficult to read about the interactions between sul’dam and damane. And Galina is not the only Aes Sedai bound to obedience by an Oath Rod, either—there are also the Salidar spies, uncovered and bound by Seaine and the rest. I imagine they won’t be treated like animals, but no one involved seemed to have much of an objection to enslaving the women in such a way, either.
And I know that this sort of thing was common in the epic fantasy of the time, but for me, these really intense subjects aren’t really being given their thematic due in most of the Wheel of Time books. I wouldn’t go so far as to say that Robert Jordan is only including them for shock value. Rather, I think he does have some really interesting ideas about violence, including sexual violence, war, and trauma that he is trying to bring into his work, sometimes very effectively, but other times less so. The slavery thing, and a lot of the torture as well, isn’t thematically explored very often, not with any depth. Even Rand’s post-kidnapping PTSD, which receives more attention from the narration, feels like a really interesting thought, left unfinished. (Though it may be that the plotline with Cadsuane will address if further. And often when I’m reading, I get the sense that Jordan is poking at something deeper, something more profound than violence for violence’s sake, or as an excuse to describe a woman being naked again, but that he either can’t get the thought onto the page effectively or maybe didn’t even have a clear sense of it in his own mind.
As a result, much of the more graphic aspects of torture and exploitation, including sexual exploitation, often come off as though they are mostly intended to be titillating. And I do think that is sometimes true—the way grown women are always experiencing spanking and corporeal punishment on their derrieres, for example. But other times, I think Jordan is just missing whatever thematic exploration he is aiming at. And this has me thinking about his own history and experience of war, and what he might have been carrying with him as he wrote.
I really enjoyed Faile’s confusion over Maighdin’s attitude, and how similar it is to Alliandre’s. More than once the narration makes the point that Alliandre is a smart woman, but that she has a queen’s attitude and temperament. It is hard for her to adapt, even briefly, to the situation she finds herself in as a gai’shain captive of the Aiel. Faile, though a lady, is much more flexible, but for Alliandre, and for Morgase, it is difficult to change how a Queen thinks of herself, and the behavior she learned in order to be successful in her role as the leader of a country. Morgase is better at it than Alliandre, perhaps because she’s had more practice, but also because she is just that good, and that smart. I love the character, and I wish (again, so difficult with such an expansive story) that we could have more time in her POV, that she could become a slightly more significant part of our reading. I just feel like she has so much potential, and that it’s underused as long as her main function in this part of the story is to be a piece of dramatic irony—as much as I love dramatic irony.
Still, I’m fascinated to see where the story goes with Faile, Alliandre, and Morgase navigating the political intrigue of Sevanna vs Therava, with a side of Galina wanting them to steal the other Oath Rod for her. It would be really cool if they succeeded, and although Galina is fully capable of lying, since she’s Black Ajah, she still might end up taking them with her. On the other hand, there are lots of opportunities for Therava and Sevanna to be played against each other, a bit like how Egwene and Siuan manipulated Lelaine and Romanda. The dangers are even greater for Faile and co. than they were for Egwene and Siuan, but the need for success is even more important, at least from a personal standpoint.
And while I’m rooting for Faile, Morgase, and Alliandre to effect their own escape, there’s always a chance that the wolf will find his falcon after all. We’ll be checking back in with Perrin, who is not handling his wife’s kidnapping very well, next week.
It’s Sylas K Barrett’s birthday this week. Despite these chapters, he would kind of like a little bit of snow.
It’s an interesting insight, that the Shaido are holding to the forms of ji’e’toh and not the substance. The more… performative parts, like not holding a sword, are all good, but the substantive bits of acting with honor are just completely left by the wayside.
I guess in some ways it isn’t surprising. Couladin’s entire pitch, way back in TSR, was explicitly an Aiel-supremacist one. Rand’s revelation that the Aiel had not only begun as what they hate, but had essentially betrayed their oaths to do so, was contrasted by Couladin’s vision of the Aiel as warriors and conquerors. So the Shaido, and the Mera’din, are already working under the assumption that non-Aiel are inherently lesser than they are. And in that light, all of their attitudes make more sense. If your whole worldview is aggressive and imperialist in nature, then even something like ji’e’toh, which was meant to be a code to live up to, can become a club with which to beat others down.
This also makes the Wise One’s actions more understandable, as well. Therava et al already know that Rand is the Car’a’carn, they know that what they’ve done is a betrayal of everything they were. And they did it anyway, because their loyalty was to their clan and their pre-existing identity and not to some larger concept of honor or destiny or prophecy. Therava threw in with Sevanna long before they murdered Desaine, because Therava made a conscious choice to prioritize her clan identity instead of her identity as an Aiel. What else is she supposed to do now? The entire thematic point of the Shaido is that they’re too weak to face the truths of Rhuidean; we know that most people who went, died from not being able to face what they saw. How are they to choose another chief at this point, when essentially every single candidate has made an explicit choice to reject that truth?
“I had a moment where I thought it was unrealistic that the Aiel, who come from a land that is always hot, were able to endure the weather so much better than someone like Faile, who comes from a cold climate.”
They live in a desert. It’s only hot during the day.
@3, yeah, I would also note that the largest desert on Earth by area(by the technical definition of desert) is as cold a place as anywhere on the planet.
Re: Why are the Shaido still following Sevanna
Looking at today’s US political climate, it is not that surprising to me to see a group of otherwise very intelligent and wise people continuing to follow a leader who, step-by-step, leads them down a path that doesn’t seem so terrible at first, until finally they look around and say “This isn’t where we thought we’d end up.”
you know waht is sad…. it is great to see his excitment in how this is going to play out with Faile as a prisoner and what Thevara, Sevanna and Galina are up to….and yet those of us in the know realize how little comes of it after all that happens in this book and 2 MORE BOOKS WITH THEM CAPTURED!!!!! How it basically just becomes a time sink plot wise to keep Perrin and Rand apart while Jordan gets to write a gigantic sgtory about his more loved characters, Matt, Egwene, andNynevea
Yes, while RJ did show that the Waste is shockingly cold at night, there is a HUGE difference in that dry cold versus freaking wet snow. The Aiel, outside of those still alive who fought outside the White Tower, have no concept or familiarity with snow (remember Aviendha’s reaction?). They should succumb to the elements quicker than natives, but of course, RJ depicted the Aiel as a race of superhumans.
I had the same thought when I first read the books, why would Thereva and other wise ones follow Sevenna. But after my 2nd and 3rd read I had the realization it’s just greed. Shaido are well known to be the worst of aiel amongst the aiel. And a greedy clan regardless being bound by ji e toh. Also, the fact that following sevenna they are gain wealth. Even thought it’s the worst way possible, but from the way RJ explained the shaido wiseones they are not honor bound like the rest of the aiel wise ones. And they punder and not just take the 5th. Also most go around showing half their bossoms which we have seen no other clans wiseones do. It’s very uncharacteristic of aiel wise ones. Anyway, the reason they tolerate Sevenna is they are making the clan wealthy and at the end of the day they can just blame her for leading them astray, and still feel like they were right and keep the pretence of following ji e toh. She is serving as their moral escape-goat.
@@@@@6. Kyle
Back in the usenet days we called this one the Plotline of Doom. But back in those days we also had to wait for 2, 3 years on the next book. That is a lot of waiting while discussing the books.
Later, on complete rereads I, and many others, had to admit that in hindsight it was not that bad. It took time to move Perrin in place and have them reach an agreement with the Seanchan.
On the Shaido, I always found it ironic that when we see the last of them they seem to be ‘the remnant of the remnant’ the prophecies said to survive…
It only occurs to me after rereading the series and learning how someone becomes a Wise One, that Sevanna naming herself a Wise One is a very powerful move that I’m not sure she is aware of.
@@@@@ 7 – but the Aiel are not idiots, and some knowledge of snow must have penetrated into the Waste. They don’t have “rivers” either, but they are aware of the concept, and they’ve captured enough wetlander gai’shain to have an idea of what to do when the snow comes.
@11 – Knowledge and experience are two different things. But because RJ wrote them to be badass superhumans, they basically shrug off the snowy weather. “Oh, you weak wetlanders are dying in this wet, cold stuff while completely naked? How weird.”
@@@@@ 12 – this is a series in which people are capable of “ignoring the weather” through concentration (explicitly not magic). Why is this where you draw the line?
And for what it’s worth, it’s made clear that Faile is suffering as much because she is naked and isn’t moving. The Aiel are explicitly noted as being used to privation. That they should be better able to withstand extreme conditions, or at least to function in the face of extreme conditions, makes sense. As the Aiel themselves say, the people who can’t deal with extreme weather, die.
Errata:
“Maighden” → “Maighdin”
“they approached” → “they are approached”
I’m not so sure about that. Obviously those mera’din who live among the Shaido do so because they reject Rand, and some Shaido who believed in Rand left their clan to become mera’din among the other Aiel, but among the rest of the Shaido I expect that many, like Maeric, are there because they value loyaly to the clan and sept above all else. If they believe that Rand is not the car’a’carn, then that’s because it’s what Sevanna tells them to believe.
That would be Rhuarc. I suspect that a Shaido would have said similarly unflattering things about the Taardad.
andrewrn @13:
I’m pretty sure it’s explicitly called out somewhere that they still are affected by the weather; they just don’t react to the effects. They would still get frostbite or heat stroke if they’re not careful—they’ll just ignore how bad it is while doing it.
nooly @10: Exactly. We don’t learn this until Aviendha does it in TGS (Book 12), but an apprentice declaring oneself worthy of being a Wise One is the last step before actually becoming one. Technically Sevanna should also have gone to Rhuidean, and it’s not clear why a non-apprentice can just declare themselves to be a WO, but as you say, it’s a powerful symbolic gesture (even though Sevanna had no clue of its symbolism, of course).
I don’t know if the Aiel are really being depicted as super human here. They said to move slower and be hindered by the snow and we don’t see them standing around outside in it as if it were nothing. I can’t remember if it’s this plotline or somewhere else that the Aiel are introduced to snow shoes for instance. It’s not that the Aiel here are unaware or unaffected. Bain and Chaid clearly are, the captors clearly take steps to address dangers, and they are also headed directly back to camp to get warm are they not? It’s not said explicitly but that is what’s happening. Also I imagine at least three clans of Aiel have some direct experience of snow as the final battle on the slopes of dragonmount is the “blood snow.” I don’t think the books explicitly tell us how much snow those Aiel experienced on either their advance from the waste or their subsequent return march, but they must have experienced some.
The Aiel are arguably written in a way which makes them seem inhumanly powerful, but I also try to remind myself how some historical groups like the Mongols were seen as being inhumanly skilled by their opponents due to the difference between the skills of even a professional soldier and a culture that literally raises its children in the skills that they will use for war and has them practice those skills (ridding and archery) daily from infancy. I think perhaps Jordan’s biggest mistake was depicting then as being so powerful when fighting in the Wetlanders terms. That is to say pitched formation battles. I don’t think the Aiel should have the level of skills they do when fighting against shield walls. It’s hard to say because most of the Wetlanders armies south of the borderlands are presented as being…. Less than great during this period.
There’s a fringe theory that the Aiel were genetically altered back during the Age of Legends. We know that Aginor was a geneticist, and the flashbacks make it very clear that you can recognize Aiel by sight. Given some of the stuff the Aiel are portrayed as doing, I don’t think the idea is without merit.
I also agree with the above sentiment about The Slog. It was rough when the books were coming out because it felt like you were mired in quicksand waiting for the next book and finding out that one character’s plotline didn’t seem to change much. It’s far different now that everything is done.
@17: re: The Slog:
Ultimately personal experience will differ but when I reread the series during lockdown, The Slog was no less sloggy for me. Worse, maybe, actually, because I could feel the weight of hundreds of pages of it standing between me and when stuff starts happening again. Any subsequent reread of the series will involves reading summaries and skimming large portions of books 8-11.
nigel_redpath @16
Towards the end of the 2nd paragraph points out very well what was off or overpowered of the Aiel in the worldbuilding.
All the stuff about their exceptional physical and stealth abilities plus mental fortitude are fine. But RJ portraits their war fighting as an insolated for thousands of years culture that uses raiding, ambushes etc. E.g. North American native people up to 19thC. Such cultures simply can’t face an oponent in an open pitch battle that uses pike walls etc. But the Aiel seem equally competent in this type too. Seem. Plus their logistics and movement are on par with Tolkien’s elves! Despite their huge numbers!
I think there are some clues that the Aiel are not as formidable in some aspects, like when the Wetlander force is prepared or they themselves are surpised. But the “unreliable narrator” makes this unclear OTOH, and on the other embelishes Aiel attributes. Like someone gave the example of the Mongol horsemen seeming having otherworldly abilities to non-steppe people.
Given that the non-Aiel fighting forces are depicted as extremely unprofessional for most of the series, it shouldn’t be that surprising that the Aiel do well against them. We see that there are some “elite” fighting forces, like the Defenders or Companions, but for the most part these are small groups and their role is as much ceremonial as anything else. The only true advantage they have is that they’re better equipped and maybe better trained – they seem to rarely fight or do anything much more than routine policing duties. This randomly changes halfway through the series, where suddenly any and all people holding a weapon are shown to be competent, but at least for the first half, we see that most “soldiers” are just farmers holding a spear instead of a scythe.
Whereas the Aiel are constantly fighting. The Aiel live in a place where there are marginal resources, and thus actual combat is endemic. By contrast, the wetlanders have a massive abundance of resources. There aren’t enough people to use all the arable land, as we see again and again. In fact, the wetlands seem to support a surprisingly huge amount of urbanization, and there seems to be a lot of abundance, to the point where Cairhien is being supported by imported food on a long-standing basis.
@20 I agree with you about the army compositions. I always thought RJ experiences in war and how the VC were often thought of and feared played a big part in how the Aiel were portrayed. The Americans in the Pacific did a similar thing with the Japanese. Often mythologizing their capacity for operating on little to no resources. I love in Japan and the war journals and recollections of my wife’s Japanese family don’t jive with that. They routinely point out how the lack of supplies left their own forces demoralised and weak rather than being inconsequential. So I think the points about how the Aiel should function, and how Wetlanders might feel about them are all sound. My main problem is that Wetlanders have been depicted as being routinely at war a la medieval Europe. As such it just doesn’t make sense within the world that their armies are so incompetent. We can give Cairhien a pass because we are explicitly told that the civil war has ranged for so long and the noble houses are in such a disarray that all their decent professional forces are gone, and they are unable to fight in a united manner. That being said spear/pije walls were such a common formation for a reason, and one of those reasons was the ability to quickly stand up and train such a unit. These excuses don’t really make sense for the other nations though, especially Illain and Tear who are highly militarised and always ready to go to war with each other. I think unfortunately that whole I understand a lot of where Jordan was coming from in his designs it’s at times a bridge too far. If he had described the Aiel as constantly getting in close to use their bows on pike formations and then retreating to bait in cavalry and ambush them or something like that which played to their strengths, then it would have been perfect. However he decided to have the Aiel repeatedly get stuck in against Wetlanders formations which we see most clearly from Matt’s POV. Matt’s forces do hold though and consistently win though we are told it’s because he is the war GOAT. I wish Jordan would have given more reasons for the Wetlanders incompetence, and lack of professional forces (though in our world parallels those would largely be feudal retinues).
These are ineresting insights of the Americans impressions of their foes in WW2 Pacific and Vietnam (were RJ served). They explain a lot the way the Aiel were portrait.
I think we have some evidense in the books that they are not as super human as it appears to outsiders’ POV. As was stated already, lines of infantry can hold their own and cavalry charges are effective. Even in more disorganised fights non Aiel don’t simply get butchered, as it seems they should be. At least when not completely surpised. Against myrdraal they also take heavy losses. Or is it just my headcanon?
As for the Wetlanders’ less developed militaries compared to Medieval / Early Modern Europe, there are major differences. For whatever reasons (the WT, Aes Sedai e.g., the equalising between the power and influence between the sexes) there isn’t the same cultural affinity towards warfare. There isn’t to the same extent the warrior aristocracy. It is less prestigious activity. So it has atrophied. Conflicts are resolved without fighting more often.
When many countries are larger on the map than in reality there is less reason for border conflicts.
@22/23 I don’t know if I fully agree. We are told that fighting is pretty constant. Andor has had several recent wars with Murandy and Chairhein. Tear and Illain fight a lot. The costal nations skirmish as well. The only place we are told that there is genuine peace is in the borderlands because they are busy fighting the trollocs. It is true that the nations are in decline though. I never really understood why. We are given lots of evidence that it is happening but no real cause. The only way it really could on that scale is if population was also in decline. I never really understood what was going on there.
@22 as for Aiel fighting. We are shown in LoC that the Aiel are vulnerable to cavalry (again that which is wielded by Matt but still.) Though when the cavalry gets stuck in the Aiel formation they get destroyed. We see this in the battle with Couladin. The Cairhienin cavalry is light cavalry though. We only really see heavy cavalry in the borderlands (Shibear, and defeated Malkoer) and maybe…. The Children of the Light. The Children are depicted as armoured in the fashion of heavy cav (that is to say plate and mail) but I don’t know if their horses are armoured, which would be key when fighting Aiel who have a habit of hamstringing and crippling horses. As for fighting the faceless, I’m not sure but I think essentially everyone sucks at that except the exceptionally well trained (warders/ power users/ elite borderlanders) but the Aiel do better than most basic soldiers. The gaze of the eyeless is fear and the Aiel are quicker to master theirs than other less disciplined fighters.
Let me just lay out my thinking for clarity:
Re the Aiel. I was considering them too overpowered across the board without weaknesses in areas were they should have them. But after thinking about it I think there is evidence in events in the books that they are not that overpowered. They just looked super capable from the POVs of non-Aiel.
They are still extraordinarily potent people, individually and as a whole, but it is more nuanced than it appears, I think.
Re the Wetlanders (without the Borderlanders). I am aware that they do have militaries and use them. They do have fairly frequent low level wars, conducted by fairly small forces and with hardly any political or territorial consequences.
My point is that given these countries sizes and tech level the “military science” of Randland was behind Europe at the relevant period, as well as the typical sizes of the armies. The massive ramp up in various places for various reasons we see in the books shows that these countries had the capacity. So the question is why things were the way they were in the generations and centuries before.
Just to reiterate, I am not saying that the Wetlanders were completely useless. Of course they had capable leaders and forces.
Re cavalry stuck among the Aiel, any cavalry getting stuck in any infantry that is still holding is in huge trouble. But I’m just quibbling here.
Re Aiel vs faceless, I didn’t mean to imply that they do as badly as anyone. They do better of course but the losses they take clearly show that they are within the scale of human capabilities instead of some mystic anime ninjas or something. Which they can seem as to characters in the story and readers.
Re Nations decline. It is a population decline, IIRC, thus large tracts of empty lands were nations once were. I also don’t remember exactly why. I suspect areas near many borders are also much less densely populated or at all. Or there aren’t really borders… which affect the warfare. E.g. you have to use smaller forces, otherwise you can’t feed them. Plus the stakes were lower.
@ValMar, I agree with all of that. I just never felt that there was a good reason (perhaps I missed it) for the decline. Population should be increasing. we do see that many families on the two rivers have multiple kids, but I’m not sure if it’s in line with what it should be for demographic expansion. The Two Rivers is an especially egregious case for me as there is largely no reason I can really think of as to why Andor would abandon it. It is a moderate population center with a decent tax base producing goods that we are told directly are famed throughout the lands. Everyone knows about Two Rivers tabac and wool, so it is not like the crown has forgotten about them. Is a river such a massive impediment that the queen is willing to forgive that tax revenue? It’s not even a fractious populace which might have been abandoned because the crown couldn’t support the conflict. We are basically told that for a few generations the tax collectors just stopped coming. I believe the books say “a. Generation or more.” But that’s an even more ludicrous proposition as that is definitely not enough time for the people to forget that they are technically Andorans subjects, especially when neighbouring Bearleon is still a crown possession. Sorry, that’s a bit far afield from what we were discussing it’s just something that I have been noticing and thinking more about as I’ve been following Sylas’ read through.
@@@@@ nigel_redpath
Yeah, the alienation of TR from Andor doesn’t hold very well under much scrutiny. Maybe it can be explained as one of the things that don’t mesh well with the rest of the series (in terms of world building) from the 1st book. In this specific issue maybe RJ was trying to evoke the Shire, Andor being Arnor. It is well known that RJ was paying homage to LOTR and Tolkien in the early books.
Also, it may reflect the shrinking of the nations. Andor may not have the ability to extend it’s power or influence all the way to TR. Baerlon is a mining centre and it might’ve lost control of it within a generation too, if not for the Last Battle. Between it and the truly settled territory of the state was huge empty land. But the lack of awareness of the TR people that they were part of Andor doesn’t stand well. Memories like this remain and are passed on for centuries. There’d be sayings about “the Queen” in common everyday usage… Plus Baerlon is fairly close.
I think it is easy for readers to overlook just how difficult it was in pre-modern societies to exert true political control in areas far from the center. Andor is one of the more powerful states in the series, and it has almost nothing in the way of a centralized bureaucracy or the ability to effectively control border populations. Baerlon is important because it’s a nodal point for valuable mining areas, but it’s not at all clear how far outside of the city the Queen has power. Hell, even within the city the throne isn’t particularly strong, since the Whitecloaks are capable of causing real trouble. So it’s easy to say “why doesn’t the Queen just send a tax inspector” but we also don’t really know whether there are many people like that in the first place. The whole point of a feudal system is that local governance and administration devolves to ever more local operators; the big noble houses have smaller retainers, who in turn have individual manors or what have you. In the absence of an actual feudal lord in the Two Rivers, Andor may simply not have the bureaucratic apparatus to collect taxes. How would they even know what to collect? Like, okay, the Queen dispatches a company of guards to go get “taxes” but they don’t even have a basis for knowledge of what they should be collecting in the first place without a man on the spot with an intimate knowledge of the area. My guess is Andor is funded through levying tariffs on trade and through typical feudal tithing.
@27 ValMar I had always thought that the Two Rivers was supposed to evoke America. One of its main industries essentially being tabaco farming, and it’s independent democratic system of government, which had sort of ceded from England (Andor) and was heading towards a potential fight/rebellion there with.
@28andrewrm. I understand that that is what we are told about the Two Rivers, but it still is hard to understand that the queen would abandon a peaceful lucrative population centre for want of a noble to either create or send out to take charge of. I seem to recall that we are sort of shown that the tax collectors and bureaucracy is pretty well established in Andor, both from what we see later in the books with mr sorry, and unless my mind is crazy a bunch of what matt and rand learn after being separated from thom in the first book. I seem to recall that they learn a bunch about the queen’s guards and the tax collectors on that journey.
I don’t know I’m not really dying on this hill. I don’t think it’s super important it’s just one of those things that felt set up for plot reasons which I didn’t notice literally a decade or two but now kinda sticks out to me. That being said I accept it because it’s useful for narrative purposes
@@@@@ andrewrm
Yeah, as I wrote, Andor was probably on course of losing control over Baerlon too, given that between it and Whitebridge (hundreds of miles away) was desolate wildlands. I was quering how plausible was that the people of TR didn’t remember at all that they were a part of Andor. Their folk and oral memories and culture should be full of stuff that connects them with that country.
It’s not a huge thing, especially if it’s been really long (more than 10 or so generations) plus since nothing major was happening in the TR there wouldn’t have been stories about famous people and events that were celebrated for centuries and kept reminding people of where they were back then. RJ was purposefully creating the ambience of the area to be such.
@@@@@ nigel_redpath
RJ was living in southern US and it’s natural that this had an effect in some way in his worldbuilding. But I am a little sceptical (to put it mildly) that the US was an influence in the context of this topic. The cultural traits of the TR of course are another matter.
Tobacco no doubt is very small % of the US economy overall. In Middle Earth’s Shire though…
There’s no democracy in TR. Each village governs itself by a few influencial and unelected men and women.
It didn’t secede from Andor. It was literally non-event. No one in TR even remembers that they were Andorans and no one in Andor knows that they aren’t anymore. Plus countries secede all the time. From the city I was born you can drive for a day and go through 4-5 countries thad did so within the past generation. Lots of tobacco growing too ;)
The patrol of guards is in a village near the capital. Baerlon has a local official and some guards on the walls, but they couldn’t really keep the Whitecloaks out. There is a lot of empty land between the villages near Caemlyn that are actually under the control of the queen and Baerlon.
It’s worth remembering that, even before Gabril, Morgase’ hold on power wasn’t all that strong. When Rand and Mat are in Caymlyn in EotW, the city is practically on the brink of a civil war.
@30 ValMar I would argue that Tabaco was a much bigger part of the US economy in it’s preindustrial days where along with cotton (Two Rivers wool… Maybe a stretch there) it was one of the countries biggest cash crops. While the councils themselves may be unelected, certainly the women are, the men may be elected. The mayor’s are certainly chosen. I say certainly but perhaps indeed that has always been my assumption, maybe I’m wrong there.
Happy (belated) Birthday, Silas! We share a birthday week!
Hello friends! Reading the Wheel of Time will be taking a little holiday break for the next two weeks, and resume January 2nd. But I just want to take a moment to tell you all how grateful I am to be a part of this community, and to get to work on this read week after week. You are all a true joy.
I wish a very happy holiday season to all who are celebrating, and I hope every one of you has an excellent New Year. See you in 2024!
@@@@@ 29 I understand that that is what we are told about the Two Rivers, but it still is hard to understand that the queen would abandon a peaceful lucrative population centre for want of a noble to either create or send out to take charge of. I seem to recall that we are sort of shown that the tax collectors and bureaucracy is pretty well established in Andor, both from what we see later in the books with mr sorry, and unless my mind is crazy a bunch of what matt and rand learn after being separated from thom in the first book. I seem to recall that they learn a bunch about the queen’s guards and the tax collectors on that journey.
Maybe the local noble house went extinct. Maybe there never was one to begin with. Maybe Andor never really had control over that part of the realm, and it’s only once mining started up in the Mountains of Mist that any real interest was paid to the area. We know Cairhien tried to take over the Caralain grass, and there are plenty of areas that simply aren’t well populated. Maybe it isn’t worth it for the Queen to have a permanent garrison in the area.
And yes, Rand and Mat may learn a little bit about the Queen’s Guards and tax collectors, but Whitebridge is a town located on a lucrative north/south and east/west trade route. And it’s only halfway to the Two Rivers! Keeping a tax collector or two around with some guards to levy tariffs on caravans/ships is a lot different than having them out travelling the countryside. And while reading too much into maps may not be so smart in a fictional world which clearly doesn’t prioritize that part of the world-building… Caemyln, the seat of power in Andor, is more or less north of Tear. The Two Rivers is north of Amador. There are, literally, three nations in that span of land, and one of them (Altara) is noted to have no central authority to speak of at all! The idea that Andor actually controls anything west of Whitebridge is kind of laughable. As I said, the feeling I get is that Baerlon acts as a focal point for all the mining activity in the Mountains of Mist, that it’s in otherwise uncontested territory, and that the Throne therefore takes an interest in that and only that as a means to exert control over a lucrative area with minimal investment.
@@@@@ 30 Yeah, as I wrote, Andor was probably on course of losing control over Baerlon too, given that between it and Whitebridge (hundreds of miles away) was desolate wildlands. I was quering how plausible was that the people of TR didn’t remember at all that they were a part of Andor. Their folk and oral memories and culture should be full of stuff that connects them with that country.
This doesn’t seem super implausible to me. We’re never told the degree to which the Two Rivers was ever a part of Andor. Perrin makes a bit of a guess… but he clearly doesn’t know, and is just making up some time period that seems like a long time to him. Even if we assume that there was real political control over the area, that doesn’t mean there was any cultural assimilation. We just don’t have a sense of the history of the Two Rivers in between Manetheren and the events of the story. Perhaps it is only in the last 100 years that there has been enough of a population to support any kind of export economy – it may be that there simply wasn’t anything worth administering. You’re actually on to something when you mention that the region has very little sense of it’s own history – to me, that strongly implies that there hasn’t been an “indigenous” population there for very long.
@@@@@ nigel_redpath
Yes you are right that back in time tobacco and other agricultural produce was far more important. But this was the case for almost every human society of that era (including tobacco for many places, notably the fictional Shire). The governance of the individual villages of the TR was similar to such villages in Europe, Asia, Africa. And there wasn’t overall gov in the TR.
Every reader will have their individual perception of this of course. An American is more likely to connect various aspects of the WOT worldbuilding to the US, for example. It’s natural. I am pretty sure that the way the TR was established by the author was indeed done to evoke something specific; on purpose. It just wasn’t a bunch of US villages. There aren’t even villages over there, only towns and cities, right ;)
@@@@@ andrewrm
My starting point in considering this was that at some point Andor had complete control over the TR and it was just as Andoran as any other part. Actually, this isn’t very plausable at all. In fact I think it’s very likely that the lands west of Whitebridge up to the mountains were always less developed and populated, the further you went west.
Andor’s touch on the TR was probably very light. And it probably tapered off into nothing, eventually. The people of the TR maybe never really saw themselves as Andoran. The perception of the monarch in the capital was very different as we see. This is very common in medieval Europe. I should’ve considered it already.
Because of the Manetheren blood stuff the people must always been there. But there wasn’t any “history”, at least for a while. People would remember harsh winters, floods etc, for a while. But no political events, invasions etc, to remind them of their Andoran connections. They are very literate culture so I suspect mayors and few others may be aware but prefer to not spread that knowledge. Though we don’t know for how long they’ve been so literate.
noblehunter @@@@@38 makes good points regarding my last paragraph too, besides answering andrewrm @@@@@36
@36 I think a lot would make sense if Edmond’s Field and other villages were only a couple of generations old and the Two Rivers being mostly scattered farms and sheep pens until then. If there was no centre to the region, it’s easier to believe the region slipped off the tax rolls during a Succession or other crisis. And since they had no reason to need outside help until the Trollocs came through the Ways, the TR wouldn’t have reminded the crown that they’ve come free of royal authority.
And if Andor controls the roads out of the TR, then they can skim off some of the region’s surplus when it enters the broader trade networks.
Going all the way back to @1 and some of the earlier comments regarding the Shaido, I definitely see the parallels between certain groups who conveniently abandon their claimed ethos in favor of tribalism once it starts to suit them – whether it is due to greed or just identifying more with the group or some earlier notion than being able to handle the truth.
And I think it is telling how quickly once they start to abandon one or two of their principles, how quickly they descend into abandoning many of them to the point where they are barely recognizable.
Isn’t the inn at Emond’s Field built on much older foundations? I always had a sense that the Two Rivers are closest to something like the Morea (under the Romans, a despotate that included much of the Peloponnese, including ancient Sparta, and one of the last hold-outs against the Ottoman Turks) of the late middle ages, isolated and hard to access, with an ancient heritage of which most folks are utterly unaware, but a potential major player if somebody can unite everyone and give them a wider purpose.
As for Andor’s claims over the Two Rivers, I always read those mostly as a kind of defense mechanism, since the queens were cognizant of the power of the legacy of Manetheren. To forestall any kind of revival that would threaten their much younger claim to authority, they spent a good bit of energy in the early years after seizing power by doing what they could to suppress the memory of Manetheren among the local population. As the threat of revanchism faded along with the memory of Manetheren, their priorities shifted to other areas (such as border conflicts and internal politicking), and consequently their real influence and control over the Two Rivers very quickly disappeared.
@39 Kind of like the transition from a united group founded on absolute pacifism to a collection of warrior tribes.
There seems to be some misapprehension regarding the degree of settlement between Baerlon and Whitebridge. A lot of this has to do with how, after a few days, the characters were forced to abandon the Caemlyn Road and head north. From that point, none of them made it back to the road until Whitebridge. It seems reasonable to believe that there would be a string of villages along such a major highway at regular intervals to the west of Whitebridge as well as to the east. It’s just that we readers never encounter them thanks to the detour forced on the character in tEotW.
@@@@@ sitting_duck
Fair point that it the lands between Whitebridge and Baerlon aren’t completely deserted. Still, they are very sparse. The river banks would have had a lot of settlements if the these lands were populated similarly to Andor east of Whitebridge, for example.